Author Topic: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku  (Read 829 times)

ubersketch

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A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« on: March 29, 2018, 06:38:16 pm »
I'm designing a 50x50 Chess variant and I need a bit of help.
I only have the FIDE Chess pieces (in the center of the first file arranged normally), compounds (knight compounds forward from the FIDE Chess pieces), Pawns (forward from compounds) and Ferzes and Wazirs next to the pawns.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 06:42:08 pm by ubersketch »

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Asher Hurowitz

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2018, 10:12:23 pm »
Ok - this is my new top priority! ;D I'm co-designing this!
Indeed it is certain that Chess Variants make me happy.

My Youtube Channel on Chess Variants
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCb-lm6a8XZo0eqAhfR4QWOg

My Lecture at Yale University, aged 13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smDO2Dpx5tg

My Youtube Channel on Rubik's Cube
Search"Polyhedral Paradise"

HGMuller

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2018, 02:46:15 am »
I don't understand what you are asking. Do you want suggestions for other pieces than those you mention? Do you want an initial setup for a game using only those pieces?

Note that Chess games of this size would be totally unplayable if they do not contain super-pieces far stronger than Queens, and some protection against those being traded out of the game quickly. Games could last years, even when the players must move at blitz speed. In Taikyoku shogi, for instance, you have jumping generals, which can capture up to 34 pieces in a single move. Which speeds up things a lot. In Maka Dai Dai Shogi you have the Buddhist Spirit and Teaching King, which are compounds of a Queen and another super-piece capable of locust capture, and are virtually indestructable, because they are contageous and thus cannot be traded. These are extremely efficient in annihilating the large swarms of weak steppers, through their locust captures. Without such devices, even these games would be unplayable.

BTW, note that the rules of Taikyoku Shogi were 'discovered' by known frauds, the same people as those who claimed there existed a form of 'Cambodian Chess', which later was shown to be entirely their own fabrication. So it seems unlikely the game as we know it now was ever played this way. So there is no guarantee that these rules give a playable game.

ubersketch

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2018, 04:43:12 pm »
I don't understand what you are asking. Do you want suggestions for other pieces than those you mention? Do you want an initial setup for a game using only those pieces?

Note that Chess games of this size would be totally unplayable if they do not contain super-pieces far stronger than Queens, and some protection against those being traded out of the game quickly. Games could last years, even when the players must move at blitz speed. In Taikyoku shogi, for instance, you have jumping generals, which can capture up to 34 pieces in a single move. Which speeds up things a lot. In Maka Dai Dai Shogi you have the Buddhist Spirit and Teaching King, which are compounds of a Queen and another super-piece capable of locust capture, and are virtually indestructable, because they are contageous and thus cannot be traded. These are extremely efficient in annihilating the large swarms of weak steppers, through their locust captures. Without such devices, even these games would be unplayable.

BTW, note that the rules of Taikyoku Shogi were 'discovered' by known frauds, the same people as those who claimed there existed a form of 'Cambodian Chess', which later was shown to be entirely their own fabrication. So it seems unlikely the game as we know it now was ever played this way. So there is no guarantee that these rules give a playable game.
I'm looking for new, more powerful pieces obviously.
Anyways, these "frauds" (Umebayashi Isao and Okano Shin) you mention, they actually copied their definition of Cambodian chess from An Encyclopedia of Chess Variants by A.B. Pritchard with some improvisation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouk-Khmer_(Hill%27s_version)
You can read more about it here.
It's likely that this version of Taikyoku shogi is genuine and the Cambodian chess thing a strange series of events.

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ubersketch

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2018, 05:08:41 pm »
Ok - this is my new top priority! ;D I'm co-designing this!
Thanks, you can email me or just develop it in this thread.

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John_Lewis

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2018, 06:05:00 pm »
I'm looking for new, more powerful pieces obviously.
Anyways, these "frauds" (Umebayashi Isao and Okano Shin) you mention, they actually copied their definition of Cambodian chess from An Encyclopedia of Chess Variants by A.B. Pritchard with some improvisation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouk-Khmer_(Hill%27s_version)
You can read more about it here.
It's likely that this version of Taikyoku shogi is genuine and the Cambodian chess thing a strange series of events.

That is an amazing story!

Good luck with finding pieces, there are certainly enough strong ones to discover. I would suggest some exploding ones that start far behind the starting lines. Double edged that way.

ubersketch

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2018, 07:31:38 pm »
I'm looking for new, more powerful pieces obviously.
Anyways, these "frauds" (Umebayashi Isao and Okano Shin) you mention, they actually copied their definition of Cambodian chess from An Encyclopedia of Chess Variants by A.B. Pritchard with some improvisation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouk-Khmer_(Hill%27s_version)
You can read more about it here.
It's likely that this version of Taikyoku shogi is genuine and the Cambodian chess thing a strange series of events.

That is an amazing story!

Good luck with finding pieces, there are certainly enough strong ones to discover. I would suggest some exploding ones that start far behind the starting lines. Double edged that way.
I think Tripunch pieces or Jovian pieces might work as well.

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ubersketch

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2018, 12:39:06 pm »
http://www.chessvariants.com/ideas/man-and-beast-09-mighty-like-a-rose
I think it would be fitting to have some heavy Rose based pieces.

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HGMuller

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2018, 01:27:01 pm »
Well, I think piece that just do single ordinary captures won't cut it, no matter how strong they are. What you need is pieces that can capture many opponents in one move, or pieces that can threaten the King even when it is hiding behind hundreds of other pieces. 'Snow-plow captures', rifle captures, 'machine-gun captures', 3x3 or 5x5 explosions/burns come to mind as necessary ingredients.

ubersketch

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2018, 06:05:50 pm »
Well, I think piece that just do single ordinary captures won't cut it, no matter how strong they are. What you need is pieces that can capture many opponents in one move, or pieces that can threaten the King even when it is hiding behind hundreds of other pieces. 'Snow-plow captures', rifle captures, 'machine-gun captures', 3x3 or 5x5 explosions/burns come to mind as necessary ingredients.
Okay, so I have come up with some pieces.

Super Withdrawer - Moves away from pieces to capture them and adjacent pieces. Moves like Queen.

Super Advancer - Moves next to pieces to capture them and adjacent pieces. Moves like Queen.

Super Pushme-Pullyu - Compound of Super Advancer and Super Withdrawer.

Lamia - Moves like Knight but any piece orthogonal or diagonal to it gets to rifle capture orthogonally and diagonally.

Advanced Nightrider - Nightrider that can only move to capture. If it captures a piece, all the pieces that the Advanced Nightrider could capture before it get captured as well.

Shapeshifter - It gains the moves and abilities of every piece it captures. Moves like Wazir.

Spirit - Similar to an Orphan. Gets the move of every single piece attacking it, but it can move multiple times in one move, one for each piece attacking it.

Mimic - Similar to a Chameleon. It can only move to capture. It can move to any place on the board and has to capture pieces by mimicking their modus operandi. For example, if it wants to capture a Queen, it would have to move like a Queen and kill it. For Swappers, swapping counts as capture.

Filer - Gains every move and ability of every piece on its file.

Ranker - Gains every move and ability of every piece on its rank.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 04:41:49 pm by ubersketch »

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HGMuller

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2018, 04:41:54 am »
The more I think about it, the more I get convinced that this is a fools errand. If you hardly fill the board, you would just have a small game on a large board, and would already be surpassed by Chess on an Infinite Plane. So on a 50x50 board you would need ~800 pieces to make use of the board size. That means that a game would have to last at least 800 moves to move every piece once. And most pieces would be buried so deep in your own camp, that moving them once gets them nowhere; even if they are sliders they might need 4 or 5 moves to sneak out to the front line where they can engage the opponent. So we are talking about many thousands of moves average game length, which seems a good way to ensure there would never be any interest to play it.

With a reasonable number of moves (and 500 moves should already be considered very taxing), most of the pieces would not be moved at all; for the pieces that are moved to do anything useful you might typically leave 90% of your pieces totally untouched. What would be the point of designing a plethora of piece types moving in all kinds of original ways if they only serve as 'cannon fodder'?

The only way I can think of where such a large game would make any sense is to provide diversity, i.e. have the game start (in the opening phase) with a number of super-destructive pieces, which massacre the opponent to the point where perhaps only 10% of the pieces is left (the massacred pieces having never moved). Then, depending on how exactly this is done, you would get middle-games with totally different sets of pieces. Then the presence of most of these pieces, although pointless in one particular game, would be justified by that they get intensively used in some of the games. It would be quite hard to make it such that the game is not totally decided at that point, however.

ubersketch

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2018, 09:47:52 am »
The more I think about it, the more I get convinced that this is a fools errand. If you hardly fill the board, you would just have a small game on a large board, and would already be surpassed by Chess on an Infinite Plane. So on a 50x50 board you would need ~800 pieces to make use of the board size. That means that a game would have to last at least 800 moves to move every piece once. And most pieces would be buried so deep in your own camp, that moving them once gets them nowhere; even if they are sliders they might need 4 or 5 moves to sneak out to the front line where they can engage the opponent. So we are talking about many thousands of moves average game length, which seems a good way to ensure there would never be any interest to play it.

With a reasonable number of moves (and 500 moves should already be considered very taxing), most of the pieces would not be moved at all; for the pieces that are moved to do anything useful you might typically leave 90% of your pieces totally untouched. What would be the point of designing a plethora of piece types moving in all kinds of original ways if they only serve as 'cannon fodder'?

The only way I can think of where such a large game would make any sense is to provide diversity, i.e. have the game start (in the opening phase) with a number of super-destructive pieces, which massacre the opponent to the point where perhaps only 10% of the pieces is left (the massacred pieces having never moved). Then, depending on how exactly this is done, you would get middle-games with totally different sets of pieces. Then the presence of most of these pieces, although pointless in one particular game, would be justified by that they get intensively used in some of the games. It would be quite hard to make it such that the game is not totally decided at that point, however.
Hm good idea, maybe we should put the powerful pieces at the front, and leave the less powerful ones to fight each other, with the less powerful ones able to promote to more powerful ones, based on captures.
I think I'm going to lower the size to 40x40

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ubersketch

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2018, 10:12:46 am »
I have an idea, why don't we make it so that when a piece in the opponent's side of the board gets captured, one type of your pieces gets promoted. This should allow for more powerful pieces to come through.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 10:15:29 am by ubersketch »

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Martin0

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2018, 03:31:48 pm »
How about some of the "cannon fodder" having a special move to move several pieces during the same turn. Let's call the piece infantry. An infantry can move can move up to 5 squares either horizontally or vertically (like a rook with maximum 5 squares). All infantry pieces within a 5x5 square can perform an army movement. In an army movement all pieces performing the movement must move the same amount of squares in the same direction.

This would allow many pieces to move during the same turn and with several captures at the same time. If there are some really strong pieces which makes killing several infantry pieces in one move relatively easy, then I'm not really worried about this army movement to be too powerful. Maybe still just weak pieces that rarely moves depending on how powerful other pieces are.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 03:34:38 pm by Martin0 »
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ubersketch

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Re: A Chess variant to surpass Taikyoku
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2018, 05:24:24 pm »
How about some of the "cannon fodder" having a special move to move several pieces during the same turn. Let's call the piece infantry. An infantry can move can move up to 5 squares either horizontally or vertically (like a rook with maximum 5 squares). All infantry pieces within a 5x5 square can perform an army movement. In an army movement all pieces performing the movement must move the same amount of squares in the same direction.

This would allow many pieces to move during the same turn and with several captures at the same time. If there are some really strong pieces which makes killing several infantry pieces in one move relatively easy, then I'm not really worried about this army movement to be too powerful. Maybe still just weak pieces that rarely moves depending on how powerful other pieces are.
Great idea!
And yes, the pieces I mentioned above could easily decimate an army.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 06:13:05 pm by ubersketch »

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